Sunday, December 26, 2010

A Fun Post-Christmas Activity And A Plea For Rational Discourse

You want to laugh. Go to Conservatives4Palin and read Ian Lazaran's recent rant against Lisa Murkowski.

Notice how many times Lazaran refers to himself and his fellow Palinistas as operating within the "center-right." Then notice how he attacks "moderate" Lisa Murkowski.

Ha, ha, ha. I understand the politics of Lazaran's word games. The only people on earth that have taken a fancy to Mrs. Palin are the most conservative members of the Republican base. This is why Palin's numbers are so terrible. So it must be time for Lazaran and his fellow personality cult followers to try to pass off Palin as "center-right."

Of course, we could just look at all of the polls that have come out since 2008 that show how moderates, and those who operate in the center of politics, view Palin. But most polls don't question 'centrists.' They questions 'moderates,' a group that overwhelmingly dislikes Palin. So Lazaran is trying to persuade us that moderates are bad and centrists are good. And Palin is center-right, but not one of those icky, moderate establishment types.

Lazaran's piece is comparable to when he tried to argue that there are five reasons why Palin is more experienced than the past five Presidents (qualification number #2: her ten years volunteering for the PTA-- ha, ha, ha). Or the time when Conservatives4Palin argued that Palin is a quitter because she refused to quit (Don't ask me to try to explain that piece -- but still -- ha, ha, ha).

Here is the lesson that we get from C4Palin. Nobody takes them seriously. They are comic relief, if not sad, pathetic people who hang on the words of one person that they have probably never met. Here's to hoping that 2011 will see the bloggers at Right Speak engage in thoughtful, rational discourse. Let's not become a hodgepodge of personality cult followers. I like Romney, but I will be the first to criticize him when he is wrong and the first to admit his weaknesses. I hope that everyone on this site can do the same, even if they already support a particular candidate.

50 comments:

Right Wingnut said...

Here is the lesson that we get from C4Palin. Nobody takes them seriously. They are comic relief, if not sad, pathetic people who hang on the words of one person that they have probably never met. - Pablo

Pablo,

Your post is garbage. If you want to see "sad and pathetic" look in the mirror.

Anonymous said...

After reading the 5, I went looking for Part 2 (5-10).

Did they run out of reasons?

wait,

6. She owns a team of sled dogs
7. She makes a mean moose meatball.
8. She once killed a wolf from a helicopter
9. She turned down, Dancing With The Stars
10, She can see Russia from her deck.

Now how many former Presidents can claim any of these as well?

zeke

illinoisguy said...

Pablo --> I like Romney, but I will be the first to criticize him when he is wrong and the first to admit his weaknesses

Just to help you stay a little humble, don't you mean 'the first to criticize him when you think he is wrong?" and when you believe him weak? Otherwise, you're kind of implying that you are always right when you differ.

hamaca said...

I'm having trouble reconciling this:

"Here is the lesson that we get from C4Palin. Nobody takes them seriously. They are comic relief, if not sad, pathetic people who hang on the words of one person that they have probably never met."

with this:

"Here's to hoping that 2011 will see the bloggers at Right Speak engage in thoughtful, rational discourse."

Some of your other points were interesting, though. I, too, thought Sarah was supposed to be shining example of conservatism, even with a libertarian streak. Hard to imagine any of her supporters trying to rebrand her as anything else.

zappo said...

"A Plea For Rational Discourse"


The problem with rational discourse is that it tends to get boring.

Let it all hang out. Let everyone know haw you REALLY FEEL. That's much more interesting.

I like what I read to help keep me awake.

Anonymous said...

I guess we are even because, many of us do not take you serious Pablo. Even those in your own camp cringe at many of your posts. Your encouragement of Liberal Republicans in the Senate is utter foolishness and is bad for the party in the long run.


OHIO JOE

Pablo said...

IG,

Thanks for pointing that out. I don't mean to imply that I am always right. In fact, I am arguing for rational discourse, where we set aside our allegiances to certain personalities and follow the better argument regardless of where it lands us. I don't expect neither do I hope for everyone to agree with me on the issues. I do expect to have a good discussion about them though.

Pablo said...

RW,

I always thought that you were one of my favorite Palin supporters at ROS and I even joined the group that tried to get you on board as a FPP. I can testify that you are not a mindless follower of a personality. It just appears to me that C4Palin folks are in general mindless followers of a personality.

I am sorry if I offended you, because it certainly was not my attention to do so.

Pablo said...

OJ,

What I said to RW applies to you as well. If you can point to a specific liberal policy that I support then I would love to hear it. This is not a team sport. I will never allow Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck to define conservatism for me. I believe in the reduction of the federal government. I am conservative.

Just because I think that the New START Treaty and the Dream Act are good bills does not mean that I am liberal. I stand with many conservatives on both of those issues.

Doug NYC GOP said...

Good man you are Pablo, stand your ground.

I am no Murkowski fan to say the least, and I certianly understand the consternation displayed towards her.

On the other hand, most (not all) of the C4P content and comments do really border on blind idolization.

It begs the question, if Palin is truly the best, bravest, smartest, wittiest, most conservative, capable super achiever the C4Peepers claim, why did she feel the need to quit her ($120K per yr.) job?

Certianly the woman who is the second coming of Reagan should be able to manage a few pesky law suits.

What do yo think she'll have to endure if - and it's a BIG if, she's elect President?

Right Wingnut said...

Pablo,

You are a liberal Republican. That I get, and can accept. I can also accept the fact that you don't like Sarah Palin. I don't particularly care for Mitt Romney. Although I believe liberal Republicans are a cancer in the party, I respect your right to voice your liberal positions. I've often wondered why you are even a Republican. You've explained your reasons on several occasions. Even though I still don't fully comprehend your reasoning, I accept your answer.

What I cannot accept is your insulting comments toward tens of thousands of loyal members of the conservative movement - many of which contribute a decent share of the daily traffic on this site. I link to many of my Right Speak posts at C4P, in the hopes of creating more balance on this site. Because of your insulting post, I'll be hesitant to send people to this site until your post disappears from the front page.

Right Wingnut said...

Doug,

Are you kidding me? Imagine the out rage if I penned a post about the "blind idolization" of the good folks over at MRC. I've voiced my displeasure over some of the anti-Palin stuff I've read over there (as have you in regards to anti-Mitt stuff at C4P), but would never stoop so low as to call them (one of which is you) "sad and pathetic." Pablo insulted every Palin supporter who contributes to this site. If you support that, then my opinion of you just dropped considerably.

Right Wingnut said...

Pablo and Doug,

If this is how you really feel, and are anxious to get it off your chest, grow some balls, register at C4P, and go right into the belly of the beast and tell them yourselves.

illinoisguy said...

At the end of this year, I find myself reflecting on the general tone of some things I've said, and am not overly happy with what I see. Allegiance to a particular candidate has caused many of us to act out of character. I've known Ohio Joe on here for over 3 years. I can remember when he had not yet chosen his candidate. I cite him because it's easier to see how others have changed than how I might have. I'm wondering if OJ has really changed on issues, or whether he says things he shouldn't really be saying either because he sees the game being one of hard ball, and that the weaker team loses, or is there actually a form of brainwashing coming from spending a huge amount of time arguing for a certain candidate. OJ, I think in your heart, you're a good guy. I also think you are much much closer to Mitt Romney on issues than you let yourself believe, or at least closer than you will let any of us believe. I doubt if you have read his book. I can remember when you were leaning toward Romney, ever so slightly, and since that time, I really don't think Mitt has done or said hardly anything that would bother you. In fact, if you really reflected on it, you would find that Sarah has done or said things that bother you as much or more. Mitt wrote a wonderful book, and listed 63 very conservative positions, well thought out on a wide variety of issues. Yet, you allow yourself to declare him a RINO. The only things you ever criticize him for are things that happened before the time that you were wavering on whom to support, and leaning slightly toward Mitt Romney. Since that time, Mitt has worked his tail off very, very hard to do what he felt was best for our nation, and for our party. Not one person has worked as hard to get our midterms turn out the way they did. Mitt could have gone back the last three years and earned himself a huge amount of money, but he loved his country more. I believe if you would read his book, and especially pay attention to his positions, you would be a staunch supporter of those positions. But, because you are a Palin supporter, you not only ignore that, but go overboard calling him names that don't apply to Mitt Romney at all. I like you OJ...that's one reason I'm singling you out for citing this phenomena.
Even though I disagree with Pablo on some issues, and many times certainly don't think his position is the conservative one, at least he is one who keeps his mind open to the possibility that his candidate may not be right all the time.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, except I guess I wish we could regain some of the civility we once displayed. As you all know craig "Iowa1' brings out the worst in me. I'll try to do better in the future. It would be nice if we could get back to the "With respect" starting many of the paragraphs like OJ used to do so well. Have we really lost respect for each other? What has happened?

Pablo said...

RW,

Your responses are proving my post right. Thanks.

You did say one thing that I agree with. Both camps are susceptible to blind following. Again, that was one of the reason for my post.

Pablo said...

RW,

I will take into consideration my tone. I know that i do go overboard on occasion in insulting Palin. I certainly did not mean to offend you. I believe that what I said was true, but obviously we are all contending for the truth.

Anonymous said...

Well Pablo, at the end of the day it is your right as an American to disagree with many of the rest of us on START on the DREAM act, while you have valid reasons for your opinions, it does not change the fact that they are more liberal than most of us would like. That does not mean that you are an outright Socialist or a bad person. Nevertheless, I cannot agree with your outlook on the world and the country and with the respect, I would rather not have my party subscribe to such views.


OHIO JOE.

Anonymous said...

While I do not agree with everything you wrote IG, I take it as a compliment and you made some valid points. In short, like others, I have changed over the last year and a half. It is true that while my views on political issues have not changed that much, no doubt, my political persona have changed, my political strategy has changed and my view of America, the world, the Republican party and even my state has changed.

Haha, I have not kept statistics, but I imagine that about a year and a half ago I spent about 10 or 15% of the time trashing other camps, I know spend about 70 to 75% of the time doing such. For the record, I not think that your or the majority of your camp members are bad people. 18 month ago, I vacationed in a Romney state, I was treated with hospitality and respect and figuratively speaking I saw that they had Blue blood too that run Red when it bleeds; they have hopes, fears and dreams like others. The fact remains that our party is a coalition of factions with different views of the world which is getting more difficult to square into round pegs.

Other than stating that I am an Immigrant, I do not like to go into details on public forms. However, to paint a picture, I will say this, I am an immigrant of immigrants. Meaning that neither of my parents were born in the same country that I was. In fact, they were both born in different countries and moved for a better life. In many ways, I am the product of a mixed marriage. For example, one grandfather was shot by the Nazis (fortunately he died several years later of essentially old age, and unlike a few of his nephews, he escaped so that he never had to see the inside of a German Labor camp) and the other Grandfather was killed by Communists. I am in no way asking for sympathy because that was there story, not mine and that is just the way it was, I am just painting a picture. At the time, I came to America, my country was going through arguably what was both an economic and a constitutional crises. Political parties came and went. Needless to say, I thank GOD that I am now an American.


OHIO JOE

Anonymous said...

Prior to coming to America, there was a Constitutional Referendum. It question was a compromise and was opposed by extremists on both sides of the political spectrum. Disenfranchised people and people from certain regions also opposed the deal. I opposed the deal in part because the deal was far from perfect and I was a malcontented young person. My mother (like many other immigrant upper middle class women) supported the deal. She knew the deal was far from perfect, but supported anyway because she felt it would keep the country together and feared the alternative would be political and economic turmoil like where she was from. Despite admiring her great accomplished life, I lost a lot of respect for her settling for something that 'well, at least things are better than where I came from.' I vowed to myself when I became an American, I would never be as cowardly and hold my nose, if push were to come to shove.

I realize that part of the reason Conservatism has been so successful in the United States is because people from various states and regions as well as people ranging from almost the Far Right to almost the Center were able to come together and compromise and unite behind one political party (The Grand Old Party.) However, every country goes through a major shake up of their political landscape every century or two and it appears to me that perhaps, unfortunately America is facing that now. I for one do put my camp ahead of my party and I never thought this would come in my life time, but I am also getting to the point where I am putting my state and region ahead of country. I have never been ashamed to be an Ohioan and a Midwesterner (of course by choice and not by birth,) but when I became a citizen, I was certainly an American first. In fact, some of my co-religionists feared that I put America ahead of GOD. Lately, I have questioned whether GOD still loves America. I suppose this doubt is both healthy and unhealthy.

Prior to 2010, I may have voted for one Conservative Democrat judge, I voted for a local Democrat once because their was no Republican running for that office and I voted for a local Independent in part because I felt he had the best chance of beating the Democrat. Other than that, I have voted straight Republican even when one could argue that the local Democrat was slightly better. I have finally have had enough, I voted for a few Constitutional and Libertarian candidates and well as Republicans last time. I feel that the party establishment failed to hold up to their end of the bargain so I will not automatically vote GOP anymore. I fear that America is on the verge of tipping to Socialism and thus, I believe in needs a hard Rightist to shock the country back into a boom. I was willing to compromise prior to 2010 for the good of the party and the good of the country, but I now question whether this is wise anymore.


OHIO JOE

Anonymous said...

Yes IG, even 15 months ago, Mr. Romney was arguably my second choice and I would have no problem voting for him or many other Republicans in the General election. You are basically correct that ideologically, I agree with him a lot more than I disagree with him. Further, essentially, 2 of the 3 things that I am hacked off with him about happened before I got politically mad at him. My souring on him and the party establishment in general is a result of two things. First, I think that because things have gotten bad in this country, I do not think it is the time for comprise. I truly think we need to either shock the political system by swinging to the other end of the spectrum, or let the country go worse for a while longer until there is a true revolt. Throughout most of history an easy going Center Right government is the best recipe for Progress and stability, but I think that this is the time to put feet down. To be sure this day has come faster than I would like or believed, but I think it is here nevertheless. The other reason is that I think that the party establishment no longer gets it. I neither accept nor understand their current view of the world. Perhaps, I will been in a better political mood over the next few years, perhaps, I am wrong about the country being at a cross roads or turning point and perhaps, the party establishment will make peace with the grass roots. Things can change and get back on track, but I do not see it.

As for Mr. Romney working harder than anybody else, I do not buy it. Basically he is simply able to raise PAC money from his friends and supporter and give it to various candidates. Some of these candidates are good and some are not as good. So from a Conservative point of view, I think it is a mixed bag. To Mr. Romney’s credit he appears to be doing a good job attracting a support from various ethnic and racial groups. I am against quotas and Affirmative action per se, but it is promising that his camp has gotten its act together in terms of bringing certain people together. However, at this point, I still do not think they get the serious issues that the country faces and from what I see I do not think they have the solutions needed.


OHIO JOE

hamaca said...

OJ,

I enjoy reading your posts. Thanks for providing a bit of a window into what experiences have contributed to your thinking--fascinating for me.

Doug NYC GOP said...

RWN,

I re-read Pablo's post and I didn't get that he was insulting anyone on this site, who posts. If I missed something let me know. I doubt it was his motivation and it is not mine. He directed most of criticism at Ian Lazaran, a FPP at C4P. So unless you are Mr. Lazaran, I don't think there is an issue.

I have read some exchanges you have had with Nate G about the MRC site. While there may something in the chat box, he and the other authors there, don't post negative stories or refer to Palin in a negative tone, as they do at C4P. Again, if I missed something, let me know.

Regarding "growing some balls" - I've had mine all my life, and they have served me well. In fact I had them with me, when I registered at C4P recently and engaged in conversation. You should remember, because that is how Tex and you and I re-connected after the ROS Banning idiocy.

illinoisguy said...

OJ, thanks for shedding some light on your viewpoint changes. Your showed me that I was wrong in my analyzation of where you had been and where you are now. You said, "As for Mr. Romney working harder than anybody else, I do not buy it. Basically he is simply able to raise PAC money from his friends and supporter and give it to various candidates."

If not Mitt, then who would you suggest has worked harder? Note that I'm not saying 'had more impact' because that is a judgement thing. I'm saying worked harder. He has been on the road constantly, leaving his family behind to try to hold together the kind of coalition it will take to win as a party. You say some of the people he supported were not so good; well the same can be said for Sarah, and everyone else I know. He wrote a wonderful book. Again, I doubt that you read it, and that if you had have, you would agree with the vast majority of his proposals and idealogy. He has written countless Op Eds. It's true that he didn't get as much press for his as some others did for theirs, but that should tell you something about who the MSM wants to keep in the forefront of the discussion. Mitt is down on paper, and internet on where he stands on the issues; he is extremely inlightened on all of the issues. I would presume to say I know of no one that could stand toe to toe with him with no notes and discuss the issues as eloquently and with as much depth of knowledge as Mitt Romney.

I guess what I am saying is that if we get Mitt Romney, we won't have to go through this evolutionary transition that you believe we must pass through. We can get back to the foundation principles of our country without the extra and unnecessary pain. Read his book; read his proposals. I'm just really disappointed in you when you throw the RINO thing his way. I would prefer you to let the lesser intelligent wing of your camp throw that garbage out there. Mitt is a great man, and will be a great president, and he will defend the conservative principles you value you much, and we won't have to become communistic before swinging back to the kind of nation we would both want. There is no need for the pendulum to swing as far as you must now think it necessary. About a year ago, it was still a big problem for you if Palin were to move your camp in a direction of third party. I thought I had detected a change in your attitude on that, and I was right. I sure hope I am right and you are wrong about where things are and how we are going to get to where we both want, because your path has a lot more grief and pain in it than mine does. I don't want to leave this earth knowing my kids and grandkids have to live under communism before somebody gets them back on track way down the road. I certainly don't think that is necessary.

illinoisguy said...

My second sentence in the preceding post should have said "You showed me that I was not wrong in my analyzation of where you had been and where you are now."

Anonymous said...

"I sure hope I am right and you are wrong about where things are and how we are going to get to where we both want, because your path has a lot more grief and pain in it than mine does." Absolutely, yes such a senario would cause some level of pain. I could be wrong and it would be great if I in deed were wrong, but I have come to the believe that a certain amount of pain at some point appears unescapable.

First of all, while I maintain that Mr. Romney has a few liberals tendencies, I do not think that I (OHIO JOE) produce the word RINO that often. I might use a phase like 'mandate lover.' Yes that is not a nice term, but frankly it is no worse or crazy that what my camp leader has been called. You are right, I have not read Mr. Romney's book and thus I suppose, I do not know exactly where to put him on the political sprectrum. I think it is fair to say that he is somewaht of a Center Rightist, but somebody else can pinpoint his exact place. I have little doubt that he himself is Pro-Life, he has a foreign policies that I can live with (he has proven that he is quite knowledgable about certain countries in particular to boot) and despite having some liberal economic tendencies, he is no Socialist. So on paper, my problems with him are few.

The 6 Billion dollar question is: will he actually promote in the Presidency, the Conservative principles that he is supposed to have. This is where I have I serious doubts. My doubt started to appear near the end of 2009 and have kept growing in 2010. To be blunt the fact that he has been buddy with with the establishment such my state party chairman, is rather troubling. One of his other friends that trouble me is Mr. Brown. Hey, to a degree, I get the fact that MA is a liberal state that has more gender diversity than most other states, but to to keep saying that he needs to be moderate to appease his constituents does not cut it. This was a major disapointment for many people, and I for one will think long and hard before I donate money again to a politician from MA. Is there something in the water there. Sure, he may have weakened the bill behind the scenes, but the fact that he supported the Financial Services Bill as it was, was pure nuttuiness. Will we have to bail out more bills again. Him voting for the food bill was Stupid (unless somebody bribed him.) I know that there are not many farms in MA, but don't those people eat? I know he is just one example and most Romneyites are not nearly as nutty, but he is going to stand up to these guy??? I do not see, I am in no mood to roll the dice and take another chance. Yes at least Mr. Romney did have enough character to stand up to such characters on the tax deal, but often times, I did not see that he had the character to stand up against such characters.

OHIO JOE

illinoisguy said...

We just see most of your last paragraph quite differently. Brown is way to left of the tolerable Republican, even in Massachusetts. Unfortunately, it really does seem that he is as far right as can be elected in Masachusetts at this time. Hopefully, that will change over time.

The rest of your paragraph I just see very differently. I can't say anything that would change your mind. Perhaps reading his book would help considerably. Many times a persons true character can come across as one peruses a few hundred pages written by their hand and produced by their mind. As you know I trust Mitt Romney to do the very same things you wish you could trust him on more than any other candidate. Not only do I trust him, but I see in him a greater work ethic than any candidate ever. He works like crazy 24/7, taking appropriate time off for worship and prayers, and some off for family, of course. In my mind, nobody is out there with the ability, intelligence, and drive to bring across much needed change. It would only take you a week or two to read his book. I pray you will and get to know this man much better. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Anonymous said...

IG, with all due respect, Romney just isn't enough for some people in our party. It doesn't make them wrong or you right or your wrong and them right...it just is what it is. I am a proud Palin supporter and all of the things you see in Romney I see in Palin. Am I right...for me I am and I must assume that you're right for you. BUT, I do think it is a bit disingenuous of you to plead for more respectful discussions in one of your first sentences and then criticize OJ for not agreeing with you about Romney. IMO.

jerseyrepublican

Anonymous said...

Pablo, I won't address the hypocrisy of your post, or maybe I will, you call for civil discourse while calling Palin supporters blind followers...are you serious?

If you actually took the time to honestly look at Palin's career you would see that she IS a center right politician. She has promoted smaller government her entire career. I honestly believe that you would admire Palin, as a person and a politician, if you stopped getting your marching orders from Frum and his forum.

jerseyrepublican

Anonymous said...

Well said Jersey, it is difficult to oppose Mrs. Palin on the issues, so often the Anti-Palinites try to falsely paint her as an intellectual light-weight to put it politely. However, they get offended if we say something half as bad about their candidates. Their comeback of course is 'but it is actually true that Sarah is a nutball.' Yeah it is true because they repeated enough times. We can repeat things as well.


OHIO JOE

Anonymous said...

OJ, I think the behavior comparison between different camps is always one sided and its truths lie on which side you are on.

Palin detractors, on the right, use liberal tactics, from liberal sources and Junior High antics to try to bring down Palin. Palin supporters, for the most part, actually use candidate's positions as fuel.

jerseyrepublican

Romney supporters say Palin is dumb, Palin supporters say Romney has trouble with the base and MassCare will be a big hurdle for him in the primaries and the general, if he manages to win the nomination. I ask you this...which criticism is more thought provoking?

Anonymous said...

Yes, Jersey it does not take a whole lot of brains to be an anti-Palinite, just go to Huffington or KOS and write their talking points. It gets old fast.


OHIO JOE

Pablo said...

Jersey,

I don't think that you understand my plea for rational discourse. I am not saying that we can't have opinions. What I am saying is that we ought not to get our marching orders from any one person. The criticism that you just attached to Romney is a criticism that I have been stating for some time now. Let me repeat it again.

Romneycare = Obamacare - the federal government. And Romneycare will be a huge burden on Romney in the next two years.

You say that I get my marching orders from Frum. Yes, I respect him greatly, but I often disagree with him and I have posted my disagreements for everyone to see.

That is what I am talking about. I am going to think for myself. I am not going to allow someone else to think for me.

Pablo said...

"Yes, Jersey it does not take a whole lot of brains to be an anti-Palinite, just go to Huffington or KOS and write their talking points. It gets old fast."

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Look at the polls. If you think that the only people who have a problem with Palin are left-wing progressives then you have a sad inability to read polls. There are serious charges to be made against a Palin candidacy and those charges are not left-wing talking points. If you expect me to criticize Romney (which I freqently do) then don't say that any criticism of Palin are leftists talking points.

Anonymous said...

Pablo, your plea for rational discourse includes your opinion that Palin supporters are blind followers? That is so utterly ridiculous and IG proves my point in this post. You see, with Romney supporters it is rational discourse to call Palin dumb and her supporters blind followers. Because in their mind it is true. In my mind MassCare is not conservative and some ways it is unAmerican...that's my opinion...is it rational discourse under your definition?

jerseyrepublican

Anonymous said...

Pablo, per your response to OJ...can you tell me that Palin would have the same kind of negatives if Republicans, politicians and supporters of potential candidates, didn't go around spouting left wing anti-Palin talking points? Honestly? BUT, it is what it is and that's why it will be that much harder for her to win the nomination and the general but don't act like she is the cause of her problems. For instance...the word refudiate. Perhaps she typed the wrong letter, perhaps she just had a brain fart...is that really enough to say that she is stupid? What about the North Korea ally slip. Is that enough to garner the attention it received? How about when Obama said there were 57 states...am I to believe he actually thinks there are 57 states and he's stupid? This neverending quest to paint Palin as dumb is getting really old and really tired and the only reason it is occurring is because the Libs fear her and the establishment Republicans have seen what she has done to corrupt politicians in Alaska. If you cannot see this as one of the biggest efforts, by the MSM and the Dems and members of our own party, to bring down a political figure in the history of our republic...then you my friend are not paying attention. You don't have to agree with Palin, but you at least have to acknowledge it is going on.

jerseyrepublican

Anonymous said...

My original comment were eaten, so I just comment on the last post.

"You see, with Romney supporters it is rational discourse to call Palin dumb and her supporters blind followers." Well said Jersey,

I'll be blunt Pablo, I could be wrong because I cannot read your mind or your heart, but you strike me as somebody (much more than most Romneyites) to look down on Palinites as stupid jokers. For the record, there are a few characters in our camp that are not the smartest bulbs in the package (you guys have a few too.) To make a long story short. It is interesting that you take offence when you think your intelligence is questioned, but you see no problem suggesting that our camp leader and our camp members are all nuts. I admit that I nor most of my fellow camp members are not rocket scientist, but let's just say we are not nearly as nutty as your mind thinks we are.


OHIO JOE

Anonymous said...

OJ, and that's one of the problems. The other camps are so dishonest that even when she does an unquestionable, good job...in their intellectually-dishonest minds she didn't write that speech or that op-ed or that book...she couldn't have because she is dumb. IT IS SO BORING!!! They say they will start taking her seriously when she starts doing real interviews on unfriendly networks...other than FOX. When she does these interviews...they act like it never happened and continue to say they will start taking her seriously when she starts doing more unfriendly interviews. She will never win in their minds.

Will she run...I hope so, in fact, I believe she has to if she wants to continue to have a career in politics...either as a pundit and activist or as a politician. Hopefully, for them, that they have watched her 2006 debates and paid attention to her campaigning because they will not know what's coming when and if she decides to run.

jerseyrepublican

Anonymous said...

Well said OJ!!! I for one know for a fact that I am smarter and more honest than a lot of the commenters on this site...mainly a good portion of the Romney supporters but go right ahead and attack my intelligence or my supposed inability to think for myself. You see what these drones(not you Pablo...for the most part you seem to be a good dude) don't seem to realize is that I have thought for myself and that is what lead me away from Romney and I am probably more of an independent Republican or moderate Republican than most Romney supporters are.

jerseyrepublican

Pablo said...

Jersey,

Again, my definition of rational discourse=

Rational discourse = thinking for oneself and not blindly following a personality

There is a lot of that going on on all camps, but it appears to me that there is a lot more going on at C4Palin. Palin has a much stronger following than any other person out there. Yet, there is a huge gulf between what her supporters think of her and what the general population thinks of her. This is a huge problem for the conservative movement.

As to your comment about whether Palin made her bed or the Republican leaders made it for her. Palin's problems started with the interviews during the presidential election and continued when she quit her job and refused live interviews for nearly two years. 'Refudiate' was just icing on the cake. It was not the cause. In fact, I rushed to her defense on the North Korea flap. That was clearly a slip of the tongue. But don't act like Palin is the victim here. She is not. She doesn't seem to care about public policy, because she rarely speaks about it.

Would you not agree that to say that Palin appears to be inexperience and misinformed is not a fair criticism?

Pablo said...

OJ,

I apologize if I have come across like that to you. I honestly can say that I genuinely respect you and JR and RW. That is one of the great things about this site is that there is room for me and you. Please keep up the good work. There needs to be a counterbalance to me if we are going to have genunine debate.

Anonymous said...

I am also sorry if was harsh. I guess it was good that my first comment was eaten up because even though I disagree with you often, I certainly do not think you are stupid.

OHIO JOE

Anonymous said...

Pablo, first how can you compare the comments made on a site like this or ROS or Race to c4p? RS, ROS and Race are designed to promote Republican candidates, C4P is in existence to promote Sarah Palin. There's no comparison. Compare it to Huck's Army or MRC or some other site designed for one specific candidate.

Please don't mince my words...I did not say that ONLY the Republican leaders made her bed for her...it was primarily led by the Left Wing of the Democrat Party and the activist MSM. I would be the first to admit that some of Palin's early gaffes caused a domino effect for her in negatives, even though I could also argue that only the Couric interview did Palin actually mess up bad and even there I buy Palin's part of the story, but she definitely could have done a better job. Her detractors were trying to tear Palin apart way before those interviews. I'm sure you remember the multitude of stories that claimed she wasn't her Down Syndromes son's mother, or that she tried to ban certain library books...etc.

You claim she doesn't care about public policy yet she has been in the forefront, of the opposition, of Obama's agenda since day one. She has written multiple op-eds that have received critical acclaim, she was a speaker on foreign policy at a major Hong Kong event where she stood up, very Presidential, and spoke to the people of China about the goodness of the United States and the problems in the eastern markets. If you really would care enough to be more informed...which you seem like you do...you would research her a little more. Trust me it will be difficult...there is a lot of nonsense you have to wade through to get to the truth...here's a hint...if the site says something absolutely ridiculous about Palin...then it probably isn't true...like how she doesn't know that Africa is a continent. Also she is an energy expert...or at least as much of an expert as any politician is on any one subject...probably akin to Romney being an expert in business.

I aso agree that her resignation as Governor of Alaska didn't help and part of me wishes she would have fought more just so they didn't get the satisfaction of being able to call her a quitter but if you honestly look at what was happening on the ground, in Alaska, nobody should blame her for getting out of the way of the onslaught of bullets. She had millions of dollars of lawsuits against her that would have personally bankrupted her and cost the state of Alaska millions of dollars and thousands of hours of wasted time and resources. And for what...because she had the nerve to accept the VP slot against Obama.

I will agree that she has a perception about her that will be hard to break but I would like to think that Republicans...members of her own team would be honest and decent enough to look past the silly rumors and opinions and find the truth.

Are you capable of that?

jerseyrepublican

Anonymous said...

Damn! I just wrote a long response to you Pablo but it didn't post and was erased. I just spent about 10 or 15 minutes drafting it...check back later and I'll rewrite it.

jerseyrepublican

Anonymous said...

Pablo, as promised.

Listen, I'm half-heartedly rewriting this comment because, quite frankly, I am tired of this argument...I am tired of having this discussion.

So to keep it brief.

I would not agree that saying, "Palin appears to be inexperienced or misinformed is a fair criticism."

Honestly, the people who say that are not paying attention...nor do they care to. I believe that the people who go to such great lengths to demean Sarah Palin, a person who did nothing but agree to be on a Presidential ticket and fight hard for that ticket, are either political opponents or are people who believe the twisted stories about her since she first agreed to be on the national stage.

In the past I have challenged you to watch her 2006 Alaskan debates and to follow the many successes she had while serving as Governor...have you? Did you know she fulfilled every campaign promise she promised the Alaskan people in the 2 and 1/2 years she served as their Governor...that alone must impress you?

You believe, "rational discourse = thinking for oneself and not blindly following a personality," yet you fail to consider the notion that maybe Palin supporters aren't just blindly following a personality...maybe they are thoughtfully supporting a person who they believe in based on Sarah Palin's beliefs, her proven successes and for her vision of, and for, America?

It's apparent you have not taken the time to research Palin's record or even her stances on the issues yet you blindly follow a meme that she is uninformed because she had one bad interview over two years ago and because she resigned as Governor of Alaska.

Where's your "rational discourse?"

jerseyrepublican

Anonymous said...

"yet you fail to consider the notion that maybe Palin supporters aren't just blindly following a personality...maybe they are thoughtfully supporting a person who they believe in based on Sarah Palin's beliefs, her proven successes and for her vision of, and for, America?" Again, well said Jersey. Shhhhhh, here is the secret: If you want Palinites to consider supporting somebody other than Mrs. Palin, provide a reasonable alternative.


OHIO JOE

Pablo said...

"It's apparent you have not taken the time to research Palin's record or even her stances on the issues yet you blindly follow a meme that she is uninformed because she had one bad interview over two years ago and because she resigned as Governor of Alaska."

She had two bad interviews over two years ago and hasn't done a real interview since. Then when the times got tough, she resigned after two and a half years as governor of Alaska. Is Palin an effective leader? Well, we don't know, because we have only briefly seen her in action. Does Palin understand or care about public policy? Well we don't know because she rarely talks public policy and she rarely does tough interviews.

One thing is for sure OJ and JR. Palin does deserve a chance and so I will give it to her. But I want to see her go beyond reality superstar to a serious candidate who cares deeply about public policy. Right now, she is very good at staying in the spotlight, but can she come up with the tough and difficult solutions to the problems we face? We will see.

And I know that you are tired of this complaint against Palin, but it isn't going away. Palin must overcome it, just like Romney must overcome his health care policies. If Palin wants to overcome it, she should stop blaming the media for everything and go see Katie Couric again. And anyone else who wants to ask her a question.

Anonymous said...

Pablo, again Palin had one bad interview over 2 years ago...nobody with any brains thinks the Gibson interview was all that bad. Her only problem, in that interview, was the Bush Doctrine question which she actually answered according to what Gibson, himself, defined it as back in 2003. The phrase was coined by Krauthammer, who is quoted as saying, "that according to Gibson's definition...he doesn't even know what the Bush Doctrine is.

BUT, I guess I'll have to give it to you...2 interviews. So, I must assume that until she is on either 60 minutes or Meet the Press, then she hasn't done an unfriendly interview? PAY MORE ATTENTION.

Also, I think you should research the reasons as to why she resigned as Governor...personal bankruptcy and wasting millions of dollars of Alaska's money came into play...I guess that's not a good enough reason for you?

And, once again she talks public policy plenty. She led the fight against ObamaCare, she has had key foreign policy speeches, national defense speeches, she is an energy expert...akin to Romney's expertise in business. I don't know what more you want from her? She is out, on the front lines, fighting everyday for conservative causes.

I do agree she has work to do to change public perception but most negative public perception, at this stage, is still superficial. If she runs, let the contested primary and its debates decide if she is a serious candidate.

You claim that she deserves a chance and you will give it to her, yet every time you write about her, it seems your mind is made up. It also seems it is made up due to false information. If you really want to give her a chance...then research her career, watch her 2006 gubernatorial debates. I'm pretty sure you haven't even read her op-ed on quantitative easing or even one page of her books.

You can't keep an open mind when you close your eyes and cover your ears...

jerseyrepublican

Pablo said...

JR,

I don't agree with your perception of Palin, but I will try to give her a chance. I have developed a bias against her and I don't want to get to a position where I can't admit when she is right. So I will try to think more rationally about her.

I can't promise that I won't write negative things about her in the future, but I do promise to try to give her a chance. When the presidential campaign season roles around, we ought to give all of the candidates a fair shake.

Anonymous said...

Pablo, I always have commended you on your ability to admit when you were either wrong, or could have done better. Most people wouldn't...I try to be that type of person but I ultimately fall short on many occasions. I, personally, am glad you have joined this site and that you contribute in the manner that you do.

Open discussions about all the issues, not just the hot button issue of the day, is what will make this site grow in popularity. This site was beginning to look like a pro-Romney, anti-Palin site but your efforts, and the efforts of some of your other colleagues, are beginning to to change that. I look forward to having more, respectful, heated discussions with you in the New Year. If I was at all rude during our conversation then I, wholeheartedly, apologize.

Happy New Year,
jerseyrepublican

Pablo said...

Happy New Year to you too.