OJ, I am torn a little because I think the senate needs some shaking up. But Cruz just seems to be more interested in grandstanding than actually making a difference. I would not define him as one of the best senators in the country.
Take Chaffetz for instance. He is making noise AND making a difference. He's doing his job. All Cruz wants to do is set fires, it seems.
Ahhhhhhh.... Chaffetz of all people. What do Chaffetz and Martha have in common?
I have nothing against Chaffetz, but it appears as though Martha doesn't trust Cruz's Evangelical roots, and proves it by throwing out the name of a Mormon Senator from a state in which she does not reside. Furthermore, I'm not sure of Chaffetz's accomplishments are to date.
First time of everything. RomneyMan and I agree. LOL
Martha has always been particularly opposed to Evangelical candidates.
Huckabee
Perry
Palin
Bachmann
And now Cruz
I'm probably missing a few here, but you get the picture. And it usually gets personal with Martha as time goes on. Not so much with Catholic candidates though.
The game is up, Martha! Time to put your hatred to bed.....
Are you kidding, RW? When you don't have an argument, try accusing someone of bigotry. ha ha. Some things never change. Sad to see the old you back again, though!
I used Chaffetz because he is also a new congressman, and he is on TV alot. He is out front trying to get at the truth about Benghazi. But he's not going to Iowa, lol. I don't even know his faith, nor do I care. The only thing I know about him is that he is from Utah, and that he seems sincere in his efforts. Nor do I know anything about Cruz faith. Or care.
The common denominator of Huckabee, Perry, Palin, Bachmann, and Cruz is not their faith, RW. I don't have a problem with Evangelicals, other than the religious right 'leaders' who tried to torpedo Romney because of his faith. And, I think if you will be honest with yourself, you must admit that I've never given any other impression. As far as I know, Huckabee and Perry were the only ones who followed that line. Palin and Bachmann did not, although they did use their faith to gain support. But neither were qualified or ready to be potus. Heaven forbid I have a legit reason not to want them.
Sad, pathetic accusations. I wish I could say it was beneath you, but I know better!
Give it a break guys. Kudos to Martha for setting the record straight. As since I am from Utah I will state that Chaffetz is in fact doing a great job. You can actually be good at what you are doing and also be a member of my faith. You can also in fact be very bad at what you do and still be a member of my faith. Don't believe me? If not, here is proof positive. His name is Harry Reid.
I don't think your a bigot, but I do think you're have a preconceived notion that Evangelicals are anti-Mormon, hence your fierce opposition to those with Evangelical roots. You're probably not even aware of how obvious it is.
No. You are simply wrong. I am not fiercely opposed to Evangelicals, and not even slightly opposed. Not in the least. There are many politicians who are evangelical that I greatly admire, George Bush, for one.
I AM fiercely opposed to any Evangelical who would use his faith politically to divide the GOP, and that did happen quite frequently over the past 6 years. But it is a big difference!
Also, it is true that many Evangelicals are anti-Mormon, that is simply a fact. But, you will recall that I never once accused Palin of that, because she's never said anything about Mormonism. My opposition to Palin had ZERO to do with her faith.
You need to stop assuming you know my feelings and motivations. The only religion I have a problem with is Islam because it's not really a religion at all.
You know what got me thinking about this? The way you repeatedly attacked Newark Hawk the other day for simply posting a link to an article authored by Steve Deace. An article that had nothing to do with religion. Given that NH hasn't posted in a few days, I suspect he might have been taken back by that.
RW, anyone who would link to Steve Deace is either ignorant or a follower. Deace is probably the worst anti-Mormon bigot I came across ever. So yeah, he's the very type I was talking about, and yeah I do despise him. Even though it's not very Christian of me.
RW, If I were not a Mormon, I would probably be an evangelical. We have much in common. I have no problem with the faith at all.
Why is it that candidates/figures of office promoted by Mormons, when one looksi nto their background (the candidates that is)they 'just happen' to be Mormons too? lol
This blatant 'shares my beliefs' blind box ticking is so dated and is stuck in a Mormon time warp.
I don't have one iota of info who Martha is...and I've never read of he actual beliefs...but what makes me think that she's Mormon...yes or no?
Next, some other tool says " Don't believe me? If not, here is proof positive. His name is Harry Reid."
Note Harry Reid is a Dem, so being of the opposite party, is not likely to be followed. The same tool 'worships' the ground Romney walks on (also a Mormon of course), so much so that AFTER ALL THAT ENTAILED still states that 'Romney ran an inspiring campaign'
Quit the Mormon (or any religious)hanging on and lets actually favour candidates not just on religious terms.
RW, anyone who would link to Steve Deace is either ignorant or a follower.
Wow. It was a Townhall article. Do you know the background of every author you read online? It had nothing to do with religion anyway. Let it go, Martha. Let it go.
I think you aren't doing justice to Martha, people. This is a really stupid discussion. I am still watching Ted Cruz, but I will be honest and tell you that I didn't know he's an evangelical, nor do I care. We Mormons have been a small minority in this country all of our lives. We end up voting for many, many people of different religions unless we live in Utah, and even there it's not guaranteed there will be a Mormon on the ballot we can agree with. I despise Harry Reid almost ad much as Obama; both of them are despicable men.
I am going to point out out, though, that Utah has the youngest population in the nation now. Mormons have children/more children by far than the general population at this time. Many of them will be conservative and some will go into politics. You will need to be prepared for this to happen. Utahns are conservatives, but they are western conservatives and don't speak like evangelicals. Palin reaches many of you, but a conservative from Utah or Arizona may not communicate to you in the same way. Some of this is cultural, and I think we need to try to overcome it. I'm certain that is why I have never liked Palin as much as some of you, but I do try to be fair minded. You should look at Chaffetz a little more closely; I think he is the real deal, whatever religion he is.
I haven't noticed a difference in communication style between Mormons and non-Mormons. Sure, people have different styles, but I wasn't aware that it was because of their faith. What is different about the way Mormons communicate?
RW, I used to read Townhall years ago. When Romney came on the scene, the bigots came out of the woodwork at TH. It's not hard to figure out who they are. I once wrote an email response to a piece by David Limbaugh wrote that raised some concern with me. He sent me a response in which he defended the idea that 'Christians' should not vote for a Mormon. Unfortunately, I don't have it anymore. But it's true.
IMO, Deace is evil. If Newark Hawk disagrees with him, he should just say so.
AZ. I agree. In my experience, western conservatism is a little different. Out west, there is more of a live and let live attitude, and very little bigotry in general. I don't know why this is, but it's true.
RW, I don't think AZ meant Mormons speak different, but westerners.
Well, I'm 44 yrs old, a d did not even know there was bigotry against Mormons, so that should tell you how little of it there is in the Midwest. There aren't many around here to begin with, but I know there are some.
I was not specifically speaking about Mormons, but about western conservatives in a broader sense. It is true that there is a strong libertarian streak here among conservatives so a little less emphasis on social issues will be likely. I don't necessarily approve; it's just reality.
We are obviously beginning to get used to Texans out of necessity. Texas is coming into its own. I think we will begin to see some of that coming from Utah and surrounding states because they have younger populations. Believe me, you will find western conservatives way more like you than all the socialists we are importing from other countries who want more free stuff.
Mitt connected better with westerners than you would think because he went to BYU, saved the Olympics in Utah, and he has family roots in the west.
RW, I will address your question about Mormon and Evangelical styles even more specifically, although my comment above is made to clarify what I meant about western conservatives.
In my experience, Mormons and evangelicals have different communication styles. We can be talking about basically the same thing, but those not of our faith may not know it. I grew up reading a great deal of Christian fiction because I love to read, but I want books that aren't profane, violent, and are"clean." There are many more Mormon fiction books now than there were when I was growing up, so I read Christian fiction. I still do. Anyway, the way Christians communicate their religion to each other is quite different than the way Martha and I would interact, for example. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but it is different enough for people to notice and say to themselves, "This person is not like me." It even spills over into culture and influences the way people in various areas of the country communicate with each other.
While Palin or Cruz may not openly speak of their religion, somehow they do manage to convey to certain people that, "I am just like you." Even Newt Gingrich used this to convey to people in the South that he was a repentant sinner. I think it fell pretty flat in the West, though because we aren't anywhere near the Bible belt, and we know how many mistresses he's had. All politicians do this, but they work to broaden it to put together a winning coalition.
Unfortunately, the communication divide between Christians and Mormons is very wide and quite difficult for a Mormon like Mitt to bridge. If he tries to speak like an evangelical, it's offensive to them. If he doesn't try, he's ignoring them and their needs. Sometimes, Mormons do actually use the same words as evangelicals to describe an experience, and that often angers evangelicals as well, because they believe we are trying to deceive them somehow, or taking from them; these communication divides run deep. I wish this weren't the case, but it is. As you and Martha agreed, progress on this front has been made. We need to keep trying. Long comment, which I hope won't be offensive. I'm a middle child and like to get along.:-)
Yesterday our son became officially engaged. We are excited to welcome a new daughter into our family. She grew up in Wisconsin, so she might be more like you culturally, RW, than me. They both live in another state, so we have only met her for a few short days, but we all liked her, which is a good sign, I think.
I obviously didn't list them all, but as far as I'm concerned, they're interchangeable. Mostly milquetoast, with an occasional firebrand. I think this is the case throughout the country, with the exception of a handful of Southern states.
As for Palin, she's a self described Libertarian leaning Republican. She's not shy about talking about faith, but she's probably more similar to your Western Republicans when it comes to governance. She has supporters from all walks of life. Even some Mormons.
As for Wisconsin....it is similar to Minnesota culturally, except that they drink more. A lot more. LOL. (Inside joke. I'm sure this doesn't apply to your future daughter-in-law.)
Many Wisconsinites live in the Twin Cities, or commute every day for work. They're generally good people.
We're pretty much like the rest of the country, I think. Except for the South, Northeast, and California. There are significant differences there, no doubt.
If I can think of a couple of good examples to read to contrast what I am taking about, I will let you know. I know that Palin also had some very passionate supporters here. My point is who they are most likely to reach; not limiting them to certain groups.
Arizona also produced Barry Goldwater. I think we have an edge over Minnesotans on interesting politicians. We also have Shadegg, Trent Franks, Matt Salmon. Oh, don't forget Joe Arpaio and Paul Babieu. They make up for all the rest as far as interesting goes.
My new daughter in law doesn't drink, so the heavy drinking doesn't apply, :-) although she did introduce my son to bratwurst (minus the beer)--I know people say they have to be eaten together to enjoy the experience, but we'll have to take their word for it--and real maple syrup. I told my son that we have eaten bratwurst before, but he doesn't remember it, so she gets credit for that one.
41 comments:
I am not in his camp for President, but he is turning out to be one of the best Senators in the country.
He's a senator? Could have fooled me. He spends more time on the campaign trail then doing his job of 8 months.
OJ, I am torn a little because I think the senate needs some shaking up. But Cruz just seems to be more interested in grandstanding than actually making a difference. I would not define him as one of the best senators in the country.
Take Chaffetz for instance. He is making noise AND making a difference. He's doing his job. All Cruz wants to do is set fires, it seems.
-Martha
Agree with comments here. Cruz hasn't showed me anything as of yet. I am already sick of his campaigning, not too fond of him. Much ado about nothing.
Ahhhhhhh.... Chaffetz of all people. What do Chaffetz and Martha have in common?
I have nothing against Chaffetz, but it appears as though Martha doesn't trust Cruz's Evangelical roots, and proves it by throwing out the name of a Mormon Senator from a state in which she does not reside. Furthermore, I'm not sure of Chaffetz's accomplishments are to date.
Martha has demonstrated a remarkable pattern of opposing Evangelical politicians over the years, so it didn't take much to figure out her motivations.
"Take Chaffetz for instance."
zzzz here we go again, 'just happens' to be Mormon too.
Can't Mormons at least try (in italics) to see beyond Mormon candidates/people?
First time of everything. RomneyMan and I agree. LOL
Martha has always been particularly opposed to Evangelical candidates.
Huckabee
Perry
Palin
Bachmann
And now Cruz
I'm probably missing a few here, but you get the picture. And it usually gets personal with Martha as time goes on. Not so much with Catholic candidates though.
The game is up, Martha! Time to put your hatred to bed.....
Are you kidding, RW? When you don't have an argument, try accusing someone of bigotry. ha ha. Some things never change. Sad to see the old you back again, though!
I used Chaffetz because he is also a new congressman, and he is on TV alot. He is out front trying to get at the truth about Benghazi. But he's not going to Iowa, lol. I don't even know his faith, nor do I care. The only thing I know about him is that he is from Utah, and that he seems sincere in his efforts. Nor do I know anything about Cruz faith. Or care.
The common denominator of
Huckabee, Perry, Palin, Bachmann, and Cruz is not their faith, RW. I don't have a problem with Evangelicals, other than the religious right 'leaders' who tried to torpedo Romney because of his faith. And, I think if you will be honest with yourself, you must admit that I've never given any other impression. As far as I know, Huckabee and Perry were the only ones who followed that line. Palin and Bachmann did not, although they did use their faith to gain support. But neither were qualified or ready to be potus. Heaven forbid I have a legit reason not to want them.
Sad, pathetic accusations. I wish I could say it was beneath you, but I know better!
-Martha
Give it a break guys. Kudos to Martha for setting the record straight. As since I am from Utah I will state that Chaffetz is in fact doing a great job. You can actually be good at what you are doing and also be a member of my faith. You can also in fact be very bad at what you do and still be a member of my faith. Don't believe me? If not, here is proof positive. His name is Harry Reid.
Martha,
I don't think your a bigot, but I do think you're have a preconceived notion that Evangelicals are anti-Mormon, hence your fierce opposition to those with Evangelical roots. You're probably not even aware of how obvious it is.
No. You are simply wrong. I am not fiercely opposed to Evangelicals, and not even slightly opposed. Not in the least. There are many politicians who are evangelical that I greatly admire, George Bush, for one.
I AM fiercely opposed to any Evangelical who would use his faith politically to divide the GOP, and that did happen quite frequently over the past 6 years. But it is a big difference!
Also, it is true that many Evangelicals are anti-Mormon, that is simply a fact. But, you will recall that I never once accused Palin of that, because she's never said anything about Mormonism. My opposition to Palin had ZERO to do with her faith.
You need to stop assuming you know my feelings and motivations. The only religion I have a problem with is Islam because it's not really a religion at all.
-Martha
Martha,
You know what got me thinking about this? The way you repeatedly attacked Newark Hawk the other day for simply posting a link to an article authored by Steve Deace. An article that had nothing to do with religion. Given that NH hasn't posted in a few days, I suspect he might have been taken back by that.
Those comments reveal some deep, deep insecurity. NH has never even discussed faith as far as I can remember.
Link to above referenced thread.
http://www.rightspeak.net/2013/08/chris-christie-spent-part-of-last-week.html
Evangelicals have mush for brains. They should pop open a science book from time to time. Start reading and stop praying.
RW, anyone who would link to Steve Deace is either ignorant or a follower. Deace is probably the worst anti-Mormon bigot I came across ever. So yeah, he's the very type I was talking about, and yeah I do despise him. Even though it's not very Christian of me.
RW, If I were not a Mormon, I would probably be an evangelical. We have much in common. I have no problem with the faith at all.
-Martha
-Martha
Zzzzz, all Mormon AGAIN.
Why is it that candidates/figures of office promoted by Mormons, when one looksi nto their background (the candidates that is)they 'just happen' to be Mormons too? lol
This blatant 'shares my beliefs' blind box ticking is so dated and is stuck in a Mormon time warp.
I don't have one iota of info who Martha is...and I've never read of he actual beliefs...but what makes me think that she's Mormon...yes or no?
Next, some other tool says " Don't believe me? If not, here is proof positive. His name is Harry Reid."
Note Harry Reid is a Dem, so being of the opposite party, is not likely to be followed.
The same tool 'worships' the ground Romney walks on (also a Mormon of course), so much so that AFTER ALL THAT ENTAILED still states that 'Romney ran an inspiring campaign'
Quit the Mormon (or any religious)hanging on and lets actually favour candidates not just on religious terms.
RW, anyone who would link to Steve Deace is either ignorant or a follower.
Wow. It was a Townhall article. Do you know the background of every author you read online? It had nothing to do with religion anyway. Let it go, Martha. Let it go.
I think you aren't doing justice to Martha, people. This is a really stupid discussion. I am still watching Ted Cruz, but I will be honest and tell you that I didn't know he's an evangelical, nor do I care. We Mormons have been a small minority in this country all of our lives. We end up voting for many, many people of different religions unless we live in Utah, and even there it's not guaranteed there will be a Mormon on the ballot we can agree with. I despise Harry Reid almost ad much as Obama; both of them are despicable men.
I am going to point out out, though, that Utah has the youngest population in the nation now. Mormons have children/more children by far than the general population at this time. Many of them will be conservative and some will go into politics. You will need to be prepared for this to happen. Utahns are conservatives, but they are western conservatives and don't speak like evangelicals. Palin reaches many of you, but a conservative from Utah or Arizona may not communicate to you in the same way. Some of this is cultural, and I think we need to try to overcome it. I'm certain that is why I have never liked Palin as much as some of you, but I do try to be fair minded. You should look at Chaffetz a little more closely; I think he is the real deal, whatever religion he is.
AZ
I haven't noticed a difference in communication style between Mormons and non-Mormons. Sure, people have different styles, but I wasn't aware that it was because of their faith. What is different about the way Mormons communicate?
RW, I used to read Townhall years ago. When Romney came on the scene, the bigots came out of the woodwork at TH. It's not hard to figure out who they are. I once wrote an email response to a piece by David Limbaugh wrote that raised some concern with me. He sent me a response in which he defended the idea that 'Christians' should not vote for a Mormon. Unfortunately, I don't have it anymore. But it's true.
IMO, Deace is evil. If Newark Hawk disagrees with him, he should just say so.
-Martha
AZ. I agree. In my experience, western conservatism is a little different. Out west, there is more of a live and let live attitude, and very little bigotry in general. I don't know why this is, but it's true.
RW, I don't think AZ meant Mormons speak different, but westerners.
-Martha
Well, we don't have much bigotry in MN either as far as religion is concerned. Stop looking for a bigot under every rock!
Mormon, Mormon, Mormon.
Great
RW, Am I sensitive to bigotry-- yes. I won't apologize for it. It needs to be rooted out of the party.
-Martha
You're never goin to completely "root out" bigotry from society. The party you refer to nominated a Mormon last year.
RW, yup. And it took eight years for some people to get over their Mormon problem. Some never will, but there is progress.
-Martha
I do not know these people with the Mormon problem. Are they in OH? VA? CO? Doubtful. Most are probably concentrated in Southern states that Mitt WON!
Even those who openly opposed nominating a Mormon ( a small list of people) supported him against Obama.
RW, yes, that is what I am saying. A lot of people got over their problem with Mormons, and that is progress! I was glad to see it.
-Martha
Well, I'm 44 yrs old, a d did not even know there was bigotry against Mormons, so that should tell you how little of it there is in the Midwest. There aren't many around here to begin with, but I know there are some.
I was not specifically speaking about Mormons, but about western conservatives in a broader sense. It is true that there is a strong libertarian streak here among conservatives so a little less emphasis on social issues will be likely. I don't necessarily approve; it's just reality.
We are obviously beginning to get used to Texans out of necessity. Texas is coming into its own. I think we will begin to see some of that coming from Utah and surrounding states because they have younger populations. Believe me, you will find western conservatives way more like you than all the socialists we are importing from other countries who want more free stuff.
Mitt connected better with westerners than you would think because he went to BYU, saved the Olympics in Utah, and he has family roots in the west.
AZ
RW, I will address your question about Mormon and Evangelical styles even more specifically, although my comment above is made to clarify what I meant about western conservatives.
In my experience, Mormons and evangelicals have different communication styles. We can be talking about basically the same thing, but those not of our faith may not know it. I grew up reading a great deal of Christian fiction because I love to read, but I want books that aren't profane, violent, and are"clean." There are many more Mormon fiction books now than there were when I was growing up, so I read Christian fiction. I still do. Anyway, the way Christians communicate their religion to each other is quite different than the way Martha and I would interact, for example. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but it is different enough for people to notice and say to themselves, "This person is not like me." It even spills over into culture and influences the way people in various areas of the country communicate with each other.
While Palin or Cruz may not openly speak of their religion, somehow they do manage to convey to certain people that, "I am just like you." Even Newt Gingrich used this to convey to people in the South that he was a repentant sinner. I think it fell pretty flat in the West, though because we aren't anywhere near the Bible belt, and we know how many mistresses he's had. All politicians do this, but they work to broaden it to put together a winning coalition.
Unfortunately, the communication divide between Christians and Mormons is very wide and quite difficult for a Mormon like Mitt to bridge. If he tries to speak like an evangelical, it's offensive to them. If he doesn't try, he's ignoring them and their needs. Sometimes, Mormons do actually use the same words as evangelicals to describe an experience, and that often angers evangelicals as well, because they believe we are trying to deceive them somehow, or taking from them; these communication divides run deep. I wish this weren't the case, but it is. As you and Martha agreed, progress on this front has been made. We need to keep trying. Long comment, which I hope won't be offensive. I'm a middle child and like to get along.:-)
Yesterday our son became officially engaged. We are excited to welcome a new daughter into our family. She grew up in Wisconsin, so she might be more like you culturally, RW, than me. They both live in another state, so we have only met her for a few short days, but we all liked her, which is a good sign, I think.
AZ
AZ - very well said, and congratulations!
-Martha
Congratulations, AZ.
I don't see what your describing. I see different personalities regardless of religion or geography.
A list of Arizona GOP politicians, off the top of my head...
-McCain
-Brewer
-Flake
-Kyl
-J.D. Hayworth
-Goldwater
Minnesota....
-Pawlenty
-Coleman
-Bachmann
-Kline
-Paulsen
I obviously didn't list them all, but as far as I'm concerned, they're interchangeable. Mostly milquetoast, with an occasional firebrand. I think this is the case throughout the country, with the exception of a handful of Southern states.
As for Palin, she's a self described Libertarian leaning Republican. She's not shy about talking about faith, but she's probably more similar to your Western Republicans when it comes to governance. She has supporters from all walks of life. Even some Mormons.
Actually, if you just go by my list, Arizona's Republicans are far more colorful than Minnesota's. LOL
As for Wisconsin....it is similar to Minnesota culturally, except that they drink more. A lot more. LOL. (Inside joke. I'm sure this doesn't apply to your future daughter-in-law.)
Many Wisconsinites live in the Twin Cities, or commute every day for work. They're generally good people.
We're pretty much like the rest of the country, I think. Except for the South, Northeast, and California. There are significant differences there, no doubt.
If I can think of a couple of good examples to read to contrast what I am taking about, I will let you know. I know that Palin also had some very passionate supporters here. My point is who they are most likely to reach; not limiting them to certain groups.
Arizona also produced Barry Goldwater. I think we have an edge over Minnesotans on interesting politicians. We also have Shadegg, Trent Franks, Matt Salmon. Oh, don't forget Joe Arpaio and Paul Babieu. They make up for all the rest as far as interesting goes.
My new daughter in law doesn't drink, so the heavy drinking doesn't apply, :-) although she did introduce my son to bratwurst (minus the beer)--I know people say they have to be eaten together to enjoy the experience, but we'll have to take their word for it--and real maple syrup. I told my son that we have eaten bratwurst before, but he doesn't remember it, so she gets credit for that one.
AZ
The drinking joke was mostly in reference to Packer fans, because they are world famous beer drinkers.
I don't like brats, and don't drink, but as I recall burgers and beer taste better together.
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